Dec 13, 2025
The Founder Who Lost to Instagram on the Value of Failure
An interview with Matt Hagger, Founder of Taletree
Founder Focused
When Failure Becomes the Foundation of Innovation
Was Instagram really the only team to imagine a world built around photo sharing?
The answer is "no." And Matt Hagger was one of the founders who saw the idea early and began building a photo-sharing platform long before Instagram existed. Unfortunately, his startup would eventually fade into history.
Cruelly, this is often how the startup world works. Behind every successful startup is a long line of teams that pursued a similar mission, took the same risks, and failed. Not because their ideas were wrong, but because timing, distribution, or infrastructure weren’t yet on their side. In the startup world, failure isn't a possibility; it's the most likely outcome.
Yet for many entrepreneurs, failure is not the end of the story. It is the beginning of real understanding. Building a company means stepping into uncertainty without guarantees, betting years of your life on an idea most people may not believe in. And when that bet doesn’t pay off, what remains is not just loss, but perspective.
In this interview, we meet Matt Hagger, founder and CEO of Taletree, a serial entrepreneur whose journey spans decades, continents, and multiple failures. From building a photo-sharing startup ahead of its time to his current mission of nurturing imagination and creativity in children, Matt reflects on what failure taught him about courage, timing, and what it truly means to build something that matters.
* Watch the full interview now on EO’s YouTube channel! Below is the complete transcription of the interview. Minor edits have been made for clarity and readability.
Entrepreneurial Journey and the Lessons of Failure
Could you tell us about yourself and what Taletree is?
Hi everyone, my name is Matt Hagger. I'm the founder and CEO of Taletree. Taletree empowers children in a post-AI era to hold on to the precious gift of imagination and creativity. So when you arrive at Taletree and you adopt your companion, you will start brainstorming, imagining, and coming up with ideas.
So it's a free space for children to explore what's in their hearts, what they care about, and their interests. Prior to that, over the last 20 years, I've been a serial entrepreneur in the UK, and then Silicon Valley and Los Angeles, ending up at Eman Venture Labs, helping founders turn their ideas into products and into successful companies.
So it's a free space for children to explore what's in their hearts, what they care about, and their interests. Prior to that, over the last 20 years, I've been a serial entrepreneur in the UK, and then Silicon Valley and Los Angeles, ending up at Eman Venture Labs, helping founders turn their ideas into products and into successful companies.
Tell us more about your previous startup ventures.
Over the last 20 years, I've been a serial entrepreneur in the UK and then Silicon Valley and Los Angeles. The second company was Zcatter, which was the photo sharing product. I wanted it to become something that every member of the world would access and use.
When you're working on something that means everything to you at the time, you're putting your heart and soul into it. Unfortunately, 95% of all startups end in failure. Zcatter did not become the Instagram, TikTok, or X that we see today because it did not exist right now. When you climb that high, the fall is equally as heavy.
When you're working on something that means everything to you at the time, you're putting your heart and soul into it. Unfortunately, 95% of all startups end in failure. Zcatter did not become the Instagram, TikTok, or X that we see today because it did not exist right now. When you climb that high, the fall is equally as heavy.
How do you view failure in the context of entrepreneurship?
But I think going through failure or feeling failure gives you great weaponry for the future, gives you armor. I think for entrepreneurs, most of the time, you're falling out of the plane without knowing how to open the parachute. And as you get closer to the floor, you finally work it out. And I think that is something that I learned growing up, which gave me a little bit of courage.
Courage comes from taking a leap, throwing yourself in, because we don't know the solution. We don't know the answer. I think my father threw me in, knowing that he was there, I guess, if I went wrong, but he made me feel like I was on my own doing it. And that was powerful.
You just need that one person to say, "I believe in you. You can do it. You're good enough." These acts of empowerment are so important. What we need to do is we need to try to think about how we can be like a kindergarten kid for life. They don't give up. They stand up again. True entrepreneurs will always come back.
Courage comes from taking a leap, throwing yourself in, because we don't know the solution. We don't know the answer. I think my father threw me in, knowing that he was there, I guess, if I went wrong, but he made me feel like I was on my own doing it. And that was powerful.
You just need that one person to say, "I believe in you. You can do it. You're good enough." These acts of empowerment are so important. What we need to do is we need to try to think about how we can be like a kindergarten kid for life. They don't give up. They stand up again. True entrepreneurs will always come back.
Say "Yes" When Everybody Says "No"
When do you think an idea should be taken seriously?
When everybody thinks your idea is crazy, you should take it very, very seriously. That's more important than having everybody agree with your idea because if everybody agrees with your idea, it's probably too late, and somebody's already done it.
Where did that belief come from?
I went to a school in England, in Cambridge, for my primary and secondary education. There were certain times at school that I enjoyed writing stories, drama, art, stuff like that, where I could be creative. But one of the hardest things for me about going to school was the bell ringing when I was working on something.
I remember once I wouldn't leave the classroom because I needed to get my story finished, and I was in the flow of creativity, and my teacher was like, "Matt, you've got to go to mathematics now," but I couldn't leave the classroom because I was working on something. I found the answer. I realized that I wasn't going to have the creative freedom that I had when I was in kindergarten.
I remember once I wouldn't leave the classroom because I needed to get my story finished, and I was in the flow of creativity, and my teacher was like, "Matt, you've got to go to mathematics now," but I couldn't leave the classroom because I was working on something. I found the answer. I realized that I wasn't going to have the creative freedom that I had when I was in kindergarten.
How did that way of thinking turn into your first startup idea?
My childhood was challenging, but as soon as I found the internet, I became incredibly excited about the idea. The way I start companies comes from an inherent problem that I am trying to solve, a pain that I have.
Every time we used to connect to the internet, dial-up internet, it would crackle, and it would load up the web pages, and I would often visit my favorite website, which was obviously my football team. I would see that nothing had changed on that website. I need to solve this problem because I'm costing my mother a lot of money every time I dial up. I'm costing a fortune on the telephone bill.
She would present me with this telephone bill and say, "Listen, you're going to have to pay for this because you're using the internet far too much." My response was, "Right, I'm going to build something that prevents this from happening for me and everybody else."
This desktop news alerts protocol was built as soon as you connect to the internet, it would go straight to your favorite website, check to see if there was any breaking news. If there was, it would deliver that breaking news to your desktop. And that simple idea was a big one.
I got a feasibility study grant from Cambridge University Science Park and ended up going on this huge journey, and it was an invention that everybody wanted to implement, and it ended up being rolled out as the Sky Sports News alerts platform with Premier League football teams and breaking news at Sky, and that's a broadcast media corporation in the UK. It was a very exciting period of my life.
The only thing is, I didn't understand what venture capital was. I didn't understand what entrepreneurship was. I just knew I was solving a problem for myself.
So these two episodes made me realize that if I was going to progress in life, it was going to be through my own curiosity and my own ideas as opposed to following the status quo.
Every time we used to connect to the internet, dial-up internet, it would crackle, and it would load up the web pages, and I would often visit my favorite website, which was obviously my football team. I would see that nothing had changed on that website. I need to solve this problem because I'm costing my mother a lot of money every time I dial up. I'm costing a fortune on the telephone bill.
She would present me with this telephone bill and say, "Listen, you're going to have to pay for this because you're using the internet far too much." My response was, "Right, I'm going to build something that prevents this from happening for me and everybody else."
This desktop news alerts protocol was built as soon as you connect to the internet, it would go straight to your favorite website, check to see if there was any breaking news. If there was, it would deliver that breaking news to your desktop. And that simple idea was a big one.
I got a feasibility study grant from Cambridge University Science Park and ended up going on this huge journey, and it was an invention that everybody wanted to implement, and it ended up being rolled out as the Sky Sports News alerts platform with Premier League football teams and breaking news at Sky, and that's a broadcast media corporation in the UK. It was a very exciting period of my life.
The only thing is, I didn't understand what venture capital was. I didn't understand what entrepreneurship was. I just knew I was solving a problem for myself.
So these two episodes made me realize that if I was going to progress in life, it was going to be through my own curiosity and my own ideas as opposed to following the status quo.
Never start a startup without THIS
What is a crucial prerequisite for becoming an entrepreneur?
I have to be honest about it. It is not for everybody. If you don't have a deep and meaningful passion that scratches that you want to itch, you should not do it because when you get into that struggle, it is going to be extremely hard.
You can lose sight of where you're going. So my childhood does have a direct correlation to Taletree and why I'm building Taletree. I feel like sometimes I'm building Taletree for the child inside me.
You can lose sight of where you're going. So my childhood does have a direct correlation to Taletree and why I'm building Taletree. I feel like sometimes I'm building Taletree for the child inside me.
How is your childhood connected to Taletree?
Even though the school curriculum didn't suit me, my dad acknowledged that and used to help me learn through challenges.
Courage comes from taking a leap, throwing yourself in, because we don't know the solution. We don't know the answer. I think my father threw me in, knowing that he was there, I guess, if I went wrong, but he made me feel like I was on my own doing it. And that was powerful.
We used to go and watch soccer together and travel all over the country supporting our team. He would enable me to open up the map, find out where the city was, and I would be directing my father, and then I would learn about the city that we were visiting and the history behind it. Then he would ask me about the team and statistics, all the different things that had happened during the game. And I felt like I was learning through something that I love, and that was really, really powerful for me.
Courage comes from taking a leap, throwing yourself in, because we don't know the solution. We don't know the answer. I think my father threw me in, knowing that he was there, I guess, if I went wrong, but he made me feel like I was on my own doing it. And that was powerful.
We used to go and watch soccer together and travel all over the country supporting our team. He would enable me to open up the map, find out where the city was, and I would be directing my father, and then I would learn about the city that we were visiting and the history behind it. Then he would ask me about the team and statistics, all the different things that had happened during the game. And I felt like I was learning through something that I love, and that was really, really powerful for me.
It sounds like the way your father helped you learn deeply influenced how you're building Taletree today. How did those childhood experiences shape your vision for Taletree?
What I'm doing now with Taletree is essentially an extension of that. As a child, I realized that I wanted to help empower humanity to think creatively with authenticity, with purpose. I wanted all of humanity to be able to call upon their authenticity and spiritual gifts and serve others with that.
This big thinking, this curiosity, the imagination and creativity, and wonder of a child, we all possess that. It's just as we've grown up and we've gone through the system, we have lost that spark. It's not that the spark is not there. It's just we're not training that spark.
Even through the Head Start program that was piloted by George Land at NASA, where they tested creativity on 5-year-olds and then repeated that test at 10, 15, and 30, the average genius level of creativity in children, 98% of all kids that were tested were deemed geniuses. But by the time these children reach the age of 30, it goes down to 2%.
Between the ages of 5 and 30, the light of learning, the light of curiosity, the light of imagination, it dims down. It goes off. And it goes off because we're not encouraged to pursue that side of ourselves. We're encouraged to memorize, be graded based on our knowledge, our ability to perform well in examinations, and to become experts in a field where we're supposed to upskill ourselves to be able to perform those duties in society.
This big thinking, this curiosity, the imagination and creativity, and wonder of a child, we all possess that. It's just as we've grown up and we've gone through the system, we have lost that spark. It's not that the spark is not there. It's just we're not training that spark.
Even through the Head Start program that was piloted by George Land at NASA, where they tested creativity on 5-year-olds and then repeated that test at 10, 15, and 30, the average genius level of creativity in children, 98% of all kids that were tested were deemed geniuses. But by the time these children reach the age of 30, it goes down to 2%.
Between the ages of 5 and 30, the light of learning, the light of curiosity, the light of imagination, it dims down. It goes off. And it goes off because we're not encouraged to pursue that side of ourselves. We're encouraged to memorize, be graded based on our knowledge, our ability to perform well in examinations, and to become experts in a field where we're supposed to upskill ourselves to be able to perform those duties in society.
If I held up this pen and said, "How many uses of this pen can you think of?" And on average, kids came up with 15 to 20 uses of this pen, whereas adults came up with between one and three uses of this pen. But for a kid, this could be anything. This could be a sword. It could be a lightsaber. It could be a rocket. It could be a paper clip, even.
Kids just need that one person to say, "I believe in you. You can do it. You're good enough." These acts of empowerment are so important. And that is essentially why Taletree provides children with this global community of kind and creative kids.
Our mission is that kids all over the world can share their works of art with one another. Kids all over the world can communicate, compliment, and share. We allow children to feel liberated.
Having a supportive community around you is very, very important for entrepreneurs, for creative people, because without community, I think we would struggle. So when you make the decision to become an entrepreneur, it's so important that you are deeply in love with the problem that you're solving.
Kids just need that one person to say, "I believe in you. You can do it. You're good enough." These acts of empowerment are so important. And that is essentially why Taletree provides children with this global community of kind and creative kids.
Our mission is that kids all over the world can share their works of art with one another. Kids all over the world can communicate, compliment, and share. We allow children to feel liberated.
Having a supportive community around you is very, very important for entrepreneurs, for creative people, because without community, I think we would struggle. So when you make the decision to become an entrepreneur, it's so important that you are deeply in love with the problem that you're solving.
Why I Only Invest in Failed Founders
Why do you only invest in entrepreneurs with multiple failures?
The ideas that started in Eman Venture Labs will always invest in an entrepreneur that's failed three or four times. Because of the learnings that they get from the failure, they're closer to their success with every iteration. And of course, some of the companies succeed the first time, have a lot of luck, but 95% of all startups end in failure.
Can you share a personal experience that shaped your belief in investing in founders who have failed before?
Around 2005-2006, it was just at the beginning of the smartphone era. Say Windows Mobile had a smartphone, and there was a rumor that the iPhone and Android were coming. I was playing around with a Windows Mobile, and I realized that the power of a camera gave us extraordinary abilities as humans that we could share what we saw in real time.
I made the decision I was going to work on that problem, and I was going to actually build Zcatter, which was one of the first ever photo-sharing smartphone apps. I was incredibly excited about the potential of what I was building.
I made the decision I was going to work on that problem, and I was going to actually build Zcatter, which was one of the first ever photo-sharing smartphone apps. I was incredibly excited about the potential of what I was building.
How did investors and the market react to Scatter in the early and, why did you decide to move to Silicon Valley?
Of course, with any startup, you need to raise capital and you need support because the smartphone era was at the very beginning. I found it very, very hard to explain to people what I was trying to do. It was like, this will never take off. People take their photos, get them developed, and share them with their family. Nobody wants to see other people's media.
One thing that is really interesting is that Zcatter did feel like a contrarian truth. You're sitting on a good idea when everybody thinks it's crazy. So, all of these issues I was being faced with were just very negative, and I couldn't really see how in the UK I could get my business going.
Luck and timing are hugely important. Having a product that country or that market wants to adopt, and having access to the technology that will enable you to distribute it. So I decided to take a bold leap.
In the US, particularly in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, I saw so much positivity around new ideas. The people, the support, the way people encourage me and get behind my ideas. The whole ecosystem was just incredible. And if I hadn't gone out there, I don't think I would have been able to achieve what I achieved with Zcatter.
One thing that is really interesting is that Zcatter did feel like a contrarian truth. You're sitting on a good idea when everybody thinks it's crazy. So, all of these issues I was being faced with were just very negative, and I couldn't really see how in the UK I could get my business going.
Luck and timing are hugely important. Having a product that country or that market wants to adopt, and having access to the technology that will enable you to distribute it. So I decided to take a bold leap.
In the US, particularly in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, I saw so much positivity around new ideas. The people, the support, the way people encourage me and get behind my ideas. The whole ecosystem was just incredible. And if I hadn't gone out there, I don't think I would have been able to achieve what I achieved with Zcatter.
What kind of opportunities opened up for you after making that move to the US?
One of the greatest things that occurred with Zcatter was that Android had just launched, and there were just six people in the team, and I met one of the Android team members who was working under Sergey Brin, the founder of Google, on this project.
They invited me into their cohort of innovators, and I ended up getting the first G1 Android device, and Android 1 was dropped, where it wasn't even launched in the Android ecosystem. It was just a beta.
We got access to the developer kit, and we could start building. It was an incredible experience to be able to connect my native app and access the camera. We launched Zcatter on the Android market. There were like 150 apps on the App store. So we raised in excess of a million dollars to pre-seed the company.
But we were too early. Zcatter did not become the Instagram, TikTok, or X that we see today because it does not exist right now. We didn't have access to distribution because the App stores were new and we were launching and helping these ecosystems to evolve. All the technical resources required to continue to iterate and build on unstable systems meant it was very costly, time-consuming, and heavy.
They invited me into their cohort of innovators, and I ended up getting the first G1 Android device, and Android 1 was dropped, where it wasn't even launched in the Android ecosystem. It was just a beta.
We got access to the developer kit, and we could start building. It was an incredible experience to be able to connect my native app and access the camera. We launched Zcatter on the Android market. There were like 150 apps on the App store. So we raised in excess of a million dollars to pre-seed the company.
But we were too early. Zcatter did not become the Instagram, TikTok, or X that we see today because it does not exist right now. We didn't have access to distribution because the App stores were new and we were launching and helping these ecosystems to evolve. All the technical resources required to continue to iterate and build on unstable systems meant it was very costly, time-consuming, and heavy.
Looking back, what was the key takeaway from that experience?
The biggest takeaway from some of this is that just because you have an idea that's so profound, if you don't have an addressable market or the ability to distribute your idea, you might end up being eaten by somebody who arrives on time. The product life cycle is very, very important, and being in the right place at the right time with the right technology. You often become an R&D lab for somebody who can take your idea and launch a better version of it because they are on time.
When you're working on something that means everything to you at the time, you're putting your heart into it, your soul, and all your attention and passion are going into it. It becomes a way of life. When you climb that high, the fall is equally as heavy. I felt very, very down and depressed because I wanted it to become something that every member of the world would have access to my product.
But I think failure is great feedback. It tells you all the things that you don't want to be doing next time. Failure means you tried, means you were actually the man in the arena, not the voice in the crowd. You were doing it. You put yourself out there. You were vulnerable enough to take the risk. You're prepared to be judged and observed for what you're doing. Which is why our relationship with failure needs to change.
What we need to do is we need to try to think about how we can be like a kindergarten kid for life. They're not scared to fail. Nature is not scared to fail. Unfortunately, with adults, when we fall on the floor, we often run away, and we never come back. Why? Because of shame, embarrassment, and all these things. It's so hard and so brutal when you fail. But there definitely needs to be a greater acknowledgement and understanding that this is part of the journey, and I'm not finished yet.
When you're working on something that means everything to you at the time, you're putting your heart into it, your soul, and all your attention and passion are going into it. It becomes a way of life. When you climb that high, the fall is equally as heavy. I felt very, very down and depressed because I wanted it to become something that every member of the world would have access to my product.
But I think failure is great feedback. It tells you all the things that you don't want to be doing next time. Failure means you tried, means you were actually the man in the arena, not the voice in the crowd. You were doing it. You put yourself out there. You were vulnerable enough to take the risk. You're prepared to be judged and observed for what you're doing. Which is why our relationship with failure needs to change.
What we need to do is we need to try to think about how we can be like a kindergarten kid for life. They're not scared to fail. Nature is not scared to fail. Unfortunately, with adults, when we fall on the floor, we often run away, and we never come back. Why? Because of shame, embarrassment, and all these things. It's so hard and so brutal when you fail. But there definitely needs to be a greater acknowledgement and understanding that this is part of the journey, and I'm not finished yet.
The Key Difference: Good vs Great Founder
If you could offer one piece of advice to founders building their teams, what would it be?
I always say work on the business, not in the business. If you work inside it for too long, you can suffocate and stifle the growth of the business because you are trying to be every member of your team. You're trying to over-control the outcome and the destination of what's going on. It can suck the energy from you and everybody who's in the company.
When you're building a company, company means "company," right? Doesn't mean "you." It means a bunch of people all going in the right direction, all with the same aims and objectives. There are certain founders who are really good at scaling their business. They're really good at working on the business.
I think they make great "Chief Happiness Officers" as opposed to "Chief Executive Officers" because they have the ability to bring people in and understand the type of people that their company needs when they need it, and empower those people to do their best work.
I think working on the business is working on a mission where everybody who joins your company feels like it's their mission too. For example, I'm building Taletree. I'm going to make sure that from the Chief Financial Officer, Chief Legal Officer, anybody down to the head of well-being, the person who would potentially be preparing food for the company. They would all have a deep and meaningful connection to the problem that we're solving.
When you're building a company, company means "company," right? Doesn't mean "you." It means a bunch of people all going in the right direction, all with the same aims and objectives. There are certain founders who are really good at scaling their business. They're really good at working on the business.
I think they make great "Chief Happiness Officers" as opposed to "Chief Executive Officers" because they have the ability to bring people in and understand the type of people that their company needs when they need it, and empower those people to do their best work.
I think working on the business is working on a mission where everybody who joins your company feels like it's their mission too. For example, I'm building Taletree. I'm going to make sure that from the Chief Financial Officer, Chief Legal Officer, anybody down to the head of well-being, the person who would potentially be preparing food for the company. They would all have a deep and meaningful connection to the problem that we're solving.
How can entrepreneurs effectively manage their vision and daily tasks?
Have the vision and break down the miracle of the vision into bite-sized moments. Every single day has its own problems. Tomorrow you have another set of problems. You just have to try and break this overwhelming vision down into bite-sized pieces and feel accomplished every time you achieve these small milestones.
And I always say miracles come from momentum. Momentum comes from a succession of moments. So every day as you're completing and getting further towards the end goal, you're creating this momentum through continuing to attack every day the same and breaking things down. Working on that company always, as I think, is the difference between being good and being great. These are the things that I've used to help me on my journey as an entrepreneur.
And I always say miracles come from momentum. Momentum comes from a succession of moments. So every day as you're completing and getting further towards the end goal, you're creating this momentum through continuing to attack every day the same and breaking things down. Working on that company always, as I think, is the difference between being good and being great. These are the things that I've used to help me on my journey as an entrepreneur.
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