Mar 07, 2024
Leadership Lessons from 3x Founder
Interview with Snow Lee, Founder of Runbear
Founder Focused
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At a Glance
- Who: Snow Lee is a three-time founder and CEO of Runbear, having previously co-founded two startups acquired by Kakao and Buzzvil (Lee says the Buzzvil deal valued the startup at $200 million at the time), and served as Chief Architect and CPO at Buzzvil for four years.
- What: Runbear builds Plugbear, described as a Zapier for LLM apps that connects custom LLM apps and GPTs to everyday work tools like Slack, Microsoft Teams, and HubSpot, launched last December after the team pivoted away from its earlier AI co-pilot product following OpenAI's Dev Day.
- Traction: Lee says over 1,200 companies signed up to use Plugbear within three months of launch, with its paying customer base rapidly increasing; the five-person Runbear team raised its pre-seed funding in August 2023.
In this interview, Snow Lee explains why he had to unlearn OKRs as an early-stage founder, how the wrong delegation call can send a project back to square one, and why he skips screening interviews entirely when hiring people he already trusts. He also opens up about feeling lonely as CEO of a seven-co-founder startup, and shares the mindset that helped Runbear pivot to Plugbear within weeks of OpenAI's Dev Day. "The idea is the cheapest part, execution is everything."
Key Takeaways
Leadership Is a Skill You Learn, Not a Trait You're Born With
Lee rejects the idea that leaders are born, not made, calling leadership an activity that can always be improved. He points to a moment at Buzzvil when he coached a team lead through a prioritization problem instead of handing her the answer: she found a clearer target customer than he had in mind, and Lee says the approach helped him lead up to seven product teams at once, contributing to a threefold increase in annual revenue.
Founders Nurture the Business; Leaders Nurture the People
For Lee, the clearest line between the two roles is what each is ultimately building toward. Leaders exist to make their team members capable of acting independently, while founders nurture the business itself and prepare exit plans even for companies they love. That is why, as a founder, he abandoned the idea of stepping back from customer conversations: sitting on the bench, he says, is not an option.
The Wrong Delegation Level Can Cost You Weeks
Lee describes handing a team member full autonomy, level four on his five-level delegation scale, only to watch the work head in a totally different direction and have to start over. His fix was not to delegate less, but to make the framework explicit with the team, so members understand a lower delegation level reflects the task, not a judgment of the person.
OpenAI's Dev Day Nearly Killed Runbear, Then Saved It
When OpenAI launched GPTs and Assistants, Lee says Runbear's team realized they were competing not just with rivals but with the engineering teams inside their own customers. Rather than compete head-on, they spent one or two weeks building Plugbear, an integration layer connecting custom LLM apps to everyday work tools, and Lee says more than 1,200 companies signed up within three months.
Trust Beats Screening When You Hire People You Already Know
All five people at Runbear, including its co-founders, have worked together before, so Lee skips formal screening interviews entirely. What he tries to learn instead, through conversation rather than a structured process, is whether someone can stand back up after failure, since he already trusts their skills and motivation.
Being Honest With Co-Founders Isn't Optional
Looking back at his first startup's seven co-founders, Lee's biggest regret is not the flat structure itself but staying quiet about his own struggles with it. He says he should have shared his thoughts clearly and honestly with the team much earlier, since he and his co-founders simply did not yet understand how essential that honesty is.
Below is the complete transcription of the interview. Minor edits have been made for clarity and readability.
Hannah Lee (Producer at EO): Hi everyone, I'm Hannah Lee from the EO team. Welcome to the very first live streaming session of EO Studio. We're in for an hour of in-depth conversation with the founder featured on EO, Snow Lee.
The topic of this session is how he actually sold his first two startups to Kakao and Buzzvil, two very big tech companies in Korea. At his last exit, with the second startup at Buzzvil, he was actually working there for four years as a CPO, and from then on he decided to found a third startup with the very same co-founders he worked with on the first two startups. We're going to be hearing more about the journey he had before, as an entrepreneur and as a leader, and also what he's experiencing now as a very small, three-person startup.
Snow Lee's Keynote: Founders vs. Leaders
Snow Lee (CEO of Runbear): Hi Hannah, thank you for the great introduction, and thank you for having me. I will try my best to share the interesting story with you. So let me jump in. Many people equate founders with leaders. Meanwhile, not all founders are necessarily good leaders, and vice versa. All founders and leaders share many similarities and have complementary concepts, but they differ as much as they converge. Today I will share my experiences as both a founder and a leader.
I'm Snow, the CEO of Runbear. Before founding Runbear, I co-founded two startups. One was acquired by Buzzvil, one was acquired by Kakao, one of the top companies in Korea, and another was acquired by Buzzvil, a startup valued at $200 million. After joining Buzzvil, I led teams as Chief Architect and CPO for over four years.
I founded Runbear with my third-time co-founder Liam. In less than a year, we have experienced a lot of struggles. Last December we launched Plugbear, and it is growing fast. You can think of Plugbear as a Zapier for LLM apps. While creating LLM apps or custom GPTs is becoming easier, integrating them into everyday work tools like Slack, Microsoft Teams, or HubSpot remains challenging. Plugbear enables customers to easily connect their custom LLM apps to their everyday work tools, improving work performance with AI. Within three months, over 1,200 companies have signed up to use Plugbear, and the number of paying customers is rapidly increasing.
Okay, so let's get back to the topic. The roles expected of leaders and founders overlap significantly, but there are crucial differences. Let me start with the mistakes I made.
The Seven-Co-Founder Startup and the Cost of No Leadership
My first startup, in 2011, had seven co-founders, including myself. We all committed to equal shares and responsibilities, which initially propelled us forward quickly. Everyone was CEO. We worked day and night, every day.
As the team grew and I formally became the CEO, I believed it was my mission not to break the existing culture. I consistently communicated to my colleagues that my position as CEO was nominal, that roles were meaningless, and that we all had equal powers and responsibilities. I truly believed that this structure was the best way to motivate all the team members.
However, the lack of clear role definitions eventually hindered our growth, leading to prolonged discussions and indecision, especially when we needed to pivot. We had to spend days and weeks in endless arguments. At that time, I think we had many good founders but no good leaders. This led me to contemplate leadership.
Leadership Can Be Learned: A Coaching Story from Buzzvil
To compare leaders and founders, let's quickly check leadership and entrepreneurship. It's a shame that I didn't truly learn about leadership until after selling my businesses and joining a larger organization. The first significant insight I had about leadership was that leadership can be learned and improved over time.
How can we define leadership? Strong charisma, capabilities, charms, or power? Some people think that leaders are born, not made. I strongly disagree with them. Leadership is defined as an activity, and activities can always be learned and improved.
Personally, I'm a fan of the coaching leadership style. While leading several team leaders at Buzzvil, one of them asked for my advice. Buzzvil is an ad-tech company, and we had several customer cohorts: advertisers, publishers, and end users. She was struggling with defining priorities between the cohorts. At the time, I was reading the book Coaching for Performance. Although I had some ideas to suggest, I tried applying coaching techniques, and the result was remarkable.
She defined a clearer target customer than I had in mind, gaining more insight through customer interviews. It took more time to make outcomes at first, but the long-term output was way, way better. Without learning this leadership style, I would have stagnated. This approach allowed me to lead up to seven product teams at Buzzvil simultaneously, contributing to a threefold increase in annual revenue.
Entrepreneurship Can Be Learned Too
Entrepreneurship can also be learned and improved over time. It's definitely not just about creative ideas, courage, experience, or funding capabilities. Entrepreneurship is also defined as an activity.
Runbear is my third startup, but it feels like my first because it is mission-driven, unlike my previous, opportunity-driven startups. My first startup was founded simply for the joy of creating services, while my second focused on growing the India market. Discovering a good business opportunity is important, but focusing solely on opportunities can lead to losing direction during tough times, such as pivoting.
Some lessons can only be learned through experience. Thanks to my experiences, I deeply emphasized and learned from famous books like Zero to One, Traction, and Effectuation. Runbear has already pivoted several times. In its first year we launched more than seven products, including landing MVPs, but this time the pivots were not as painful as before. These were all driven by a larger mission, making us feel that we were progressing through learning.
Founders Nurture the Business, Leaders Nurture the Team
Finally, let's compare founders and leaders. I have a two-year-old boy who amazes me every day with his growth, learning things like how to eat spaghetti. While I really wish to nurture him for life, I understand that the ultimate goal of parenting is independence.
Similarly, the ultimate goal of leaders and founders is the independence of those they lead. However, leaders nurture team members: leaders want their team members to grow, be promoted, and finally act independently, while founders nurture the businesses. Although we love our businesses, we still prepare exit plans. This distinction has led me to make different decisions at critical moments as a leader and as a founder.
A leader's performance is evaluated by their team's success. Various leadership styles have evolved, especially in Silicon Valley over the last decade, focusing on mentoring and coaching to enable team members to grow independently. Generally, leaders are encouraged to create an environment where team members can achieve success as players, rather than taking the direct actions themselves. While this approach requires time for team members to learn, it's believed to be a way to achieve more.
When I took the CPO position at Buzzvil, I needed to redefine customer problems. As I mentioned earlier, there were many types of customers, including advertisers, publishers, end users, and further subdivisions. Although I really enjoy meeting customers, it's clear that I cannot meet them all. Most importantly, I understand that the insight team members gain through interviews is much more beneficial than the lessons I can provide. This led to various activities, including one-on-ones, nudging, and setting OKRs, which took time but were necessary.
On the other hand, founders are evaluated by their business success. They often don't even have a chance to be evaluated by others. Founders must be players on the field, especially when seeking product-market fit in a rapidly changing market.
As a co-founder of Runbear, I initially considered dividing customer engagement between team members and myself. Now we have five people, but I quickly abandoned the idea. Every single customer story is crucial to me. I needed to unlearn what I had learned as a leader. While I do appreciate mentoring and coaching leadership, sitting on the bench is not an option for me as a founder, at least for now.
Delegation Levels for Founders vs. Leaders
Let's talk about delegation. Delegation is usually categorized into five to seven levels. For example: level one, do as I say; level two, research and report; level three, investigate and recommend; level four, decide and inform; and finally level five, act independently. The delegation level should be used differently for different situations.
You cannot expect a baby to learn how to run by themselves when the baby cannot even walk yet. As a leader, I strive to maintain levels three to five as much as possible. Of course, no one can start as an expert from the beginning, so I use initial levels for new members, but I try to move them quickly to level three.
On the other hand, as a founder, I adjust the delegation level based on the task rather than the person. Startups need generalists more than specialists, requiring team members to quickly learn and perform unfamiliar tasks. If I clearly understand the task, I use level one. If I know the direction but not the details, level three. If quick action followed by learning is needed, level four.
Hiring, Patience, and the Netflix Playbook
We all have expectations for others. Both leaders and founders seek fast learners, but the difference is that leaders look for individuals who can quickly perform their roles and beyond, while founders seek those who can solve problems. For example, as a CPO, I looked for members who were capable of quickly learning PM skills. As a founder now, I'm looking for members who can learn how to solve problems, whatever the problem is.
Because of these expectations, hiring complete juniors as an early-stage startup founder feels particularly challenging, due to a lack of patience. Most founders choose to be poor leaders of a successful business rather than good leaders of a failed one, but as a leader we should be patient and lead members to grow toward long-term goals.
Once I had an underperformer on one of my teams at Buzzvil. At the time I was reading No Rules Rules, Netflix's book, and I was inspired by Netflix's management philosophy. Because of that, I initially thought that firing him was the best move. However, the underperformer's upper leader suggested that while he might not fit the current team, he could excel on another. His current team was working on a new project requiring the ability to define and solve undefined problems, which seemed to cause him anxiety.
I changed his team, and the result was astonishing: he became the top performer and an opinion leader of the new team. This experience taught me not to rush to judgment based on another company's philosophy.
Resilience and the Day OpenAI Almost Killed Runbear
Resilience is a well-known, required capability for founders. We fall down so many times a day, but we always get back up. I remember the day of OpenAI Dev Day last year. Do you know that it's called the Red Wedding, because it killed thousands of startups that day, including us? But we didn't give up. Interestingly, that Dev Day also opened new opportunities for us. Thank you, OpenAI.
So, long story short, these are the differences between leaders and founders that I found. Despite the differences, becoming a good founder may not be so different from becoming a good leader. The differences are significantly influenced by the endless responsibility and anxiety of being a founder. While anxiety-driven motivation can accelerate actions in the short term, it risks misdirection and is unsustainable in the long run. Founders also need to be patient, trust their members, and lead the team to achieve more.
A good leader is not just a silent supporter, or someone who makes members do as he or she says. Instead, focusing on long-term goals, building an environment that fosters team growth, and taking the final responsibility make a good leader. While leaders and founders may make different short-term decisions based on the situation and their objectives, their ultimate goals align. While becoming a good leader may not be mandatory to become a successful founder, I do believe successful founders must become good leaders. Thank you.
Live Q&A with Snow Lee
Hannah: All right, thank you, Snow, thank you for the presentation. You gave us a brief explanation of how you underwent a lot of these experiences of being a founder, wanting to be a leader, and trying to learn from different philosophies to find your own ground in the middle. I think there's a lot of stories to tell in between those moments you mentioned, so we're going to dive into them.
As people were just listening, if you had any questions during the talk that you want to ask during this live session, please make sure to ask them in the live chat. We'll be covering them as we go.
Pivoting from Runbear to Plugbear After OpenAI's Dev Day
Hannah: But I first wanted to start with the last part you mentioned, about Runbear, because you mentioned that, with the founder mentality founders need to have, OpenAI Dev Day was one of the moments when you faced difficulties with your previous idea. Can you tell us more about your journey with Runbear, and also building Plugbear?
Snow: Great, thank you for asking. I could talk all day, but let me try to keep it short. Our previous product is actually still live, and it's it's running, we have the customers, the product is Runbear, still there running, and it's helping customers with technical support, especially related to the DevOps side, so you can think of it as a somewhat vertical AI co-pilot.
At the moment of OpenAI Dev Day, OpenAI launched two big products: custom GPTs and OpenAI Assistants. We know that Runbear provides a unique value, we know our product is different, but we were really worried that our customers might not understand that, because building AI is getting easier and easier. So we needed to compete not just with other players, but with the engineering teams inside our own customers. That's the point where we were stuck, and we were shocked.
So we thought about it, we considered what we were missing and what we could do, and at the time we realized that we had spent more time on integrations than on building the core AI itself for Runbear. We even researched other solutions to see if we could use an existing integration solution for Runbear, and we couldn't find the best one for us.
So we jumped in, we spent one or two weeks to launch the product, and just after launching it we got some traction, and we are now in the middle of the growth.
Unlearning OKRs as an Early-Stage Founder
Hannah: Well, thank you. I think, especially because this was your third startup, there must have been a lot of practices you had to unlearn to make those decisions. Can you tell me more about the mission you were trying to achieve with this third startup, and what kind of things you had to unlearn during the process?
Snow: That's a good point; it's difficult to pick just one, but if I choose one thing, I'd say right away that I needed to unlearn OKRs. OKRs are one of my favorite frameworks for achieving something; at Buzzvil, I was one of the biggest fans of OKRs.
Hannah: Can you align on that a little bit before you go further?
Snow: Sure. OKR stands for Objectives and Key Results. You can think of it as something like KPIs or other frameworks, but it's a little different: the concept is really simple, but the team decides the objectives and defines the key results to track whether they're on track or at risk. We usually run OKRs each quarter, so we spend quite a lot of time deciding which objectives to pursue that quarter, and then it takes quite a lot of discussion and time to decide which numbers we'll track. There's also a concept of input metrics, output metrics, and lagging versus leading metrics.
Anyway, it's a very good framework, but as a founder, as an early-stage founder, we change our objectives every week. One of the sentences I like is that the Agile framework was actually built for situations when the team faces unexpected circumstances. If we used Agile after building the objective and pursued it for three months, maybe Agile wouldn't be the right framework for that situation. But for us, we need to listen to customers and define the next two weeks' objective, a totally different objective this week. So in that case, I needed to unlearn the frameworks I had learned.
Getting Delegation Wrong, and Fixing It
Hannah: That's great. A little more about the delegation process too, because now that we're talking about frameworks, I think we can talk about how the team operates as a leader and a founder. You mentioned that you have to determine which situation you're in to choose the delegation level for the tasks you give your team members. I feel like it's easy to say, but really hard to carry out, to objectively see the urgency of a problem and align that with your team. You mentioned a little bit of an example with your team member, and I was wondering: were there any failures in terms of delegation, where you failed first and then realized what you should have done?
Snow: That's a great question. I face it all the time, even now, we can't be perfect, we can't get it right all the time and in all things. So that's a good example: when I think a member can do something by themselves, I use level four, but after the thing is done, it turns out to be a totally different direction. Then I give feedback, and the whole process has to start again. That's the wrong delegation, and I face it from time to time.
These days, though, I've clearly shared my thoughts, and our whole Runbear team has discussed how we can manage this delegation. Alignment is quite important, so every team member understands what the delegation level means, and they don't get hurt even if I use delegation level one, because they know it's decided by the task, not the person. That's very helpful for me now.
Nurturing People vs. Nurturing the Business
Hannah: And how do you talk to your team members? I'm sure, because it's a smaller team now, a lot of early-stage founders would resonate with how closely you work together on an early startup team. You mentioned in your presentation that you have to think about how you're nurturing your team members versus building a successful, sustainable business. Because you work so closely with the team, I feel it's sometimes hard for founders to decide to put the business first, or vice versa, to make the decision to focus on the long-term goal, whereas as a founder you need to get out there and really serve your business. So for you, what has been the biggest problem or challenge in prioritizing the right team or business, in terms of choosing the right leadership strategy?
Snow: Wow, difficult question. Okay, I think the most difficult part is always related to people. It's not about founders or leaders; it's that we sometimes face people who may not fit the team. It's not a matter of the person or the team being wrong; there can be a wrong person or a wrong team. Either way, in that case we need to make the decision, and it's the same for founders and leaders. I don't have that many experiences of letting people go, but I've found that sometimes a faster decision helps both us and the member. I'm sorry I can't give you a clearer answer, but I think people are quite important for leaders and founders alike.
Reuniting with the Same Co-Founders for a Third Startup
Hannah: And just a bit more about that then, because you're doing your third startup with your previous co-founders. Can you tell me more about how you found those co-founders, and what got you to work together again on this journey of building another startup?
Snow: Great, let me start with the short answer. My co-founders have been with me since my first startup, through the second, until this third startup: we started the first journey together, we started the second journey together too, and this time I started this new startup with them again. So I sometimes get the question, why not start with all of them this time?
As time went by, I got married, I had a kid, and my co-founders grew their own thoughts, their own society, and their own careers. Lately, probably two or three years ago, or maybe just one or two years ago, we discussed our futures. We're very close, they're my close friends, so I just asked what they wanted to do in the future. I was thinking about starting a new startup, but I wasn't sure what they wanted, and it turned out to be quite different at the moment.
Even among those who were thinking about starting a new startup, the direction each of us wanted was different from mine. I wanted to go global, I wanted to start with B2B SaaS, that was the basic difference. I realized that when we're young, direction, philosophy, lifestyle, and life goals don't matter as much, we can work together, have fun, and do things together. But for an individual team and its customers, all the goals need to be aligned to build a long-running company. I learned that.
So I discussed this deeply with each of them, and Liam, my co-founder this time, turned out to have very similar life goals and business goals to mine, so we decided to start together.
Hiring Principles: Lean Over Blitzscaling
Hannah: And on top of the co-founders, I know you're slowly growing the size of your team, and a lot of early-stage founders are also wondering how you're building your team, which depends a lot on the kind of business you're running. Depending on the industry and the kind of business you're in, what did you think was the most important factor in hiring talent, and what standards are you using as you look for new people to recruit?
Snow: That's great, let me talk about the principles. There were two core principles we decided on when we started this company: one is customer-centric, and the other is a lean approach. We're trying to stick to the lean approach: we hire people only when we actually need them, and we are going to get funded only when we actually need it, and we decide the funding amount based on our goals and plans, not just opportunities.
On the other hand, I also like this approach, it's the blitzscaling approach, you know: blitzscaling is about scaling really fast growth, and it bears some inefficiency along with it. Of course, a lot of people and a lot of money get gathered, and of course there will be some inefficiency, but blitzscaling ignores that and pursues growth by scaling regardless. That's a great approach too, but it's not always a success and not always easy.
If I have to choose one, I choose lean, because I believe it makes our team much stronger and helps us keep a higher bar when we bring on talent. To be honest, it makes it a little harder to hire more people, because our standards are high, we're not going to hire many people at once. But I believe we're succeeding with that approach, and we're going to keep it.
What Snow Looks for in Early Hires
Hannah: May I ask what kind of questions you usually ask to really tell whether a person is what you're looking for, and also what you think about hiring juniors versus seniors, since you mentioned that a bit in your presentation as well? How do you think that changes as you're running this very early-stage startup?
Snow: Good point, the standard has changed so much between being a leader and being a founder. Let me talk about being a founder now. To be honest, we have five people, including the co-founders, and the other three we've all worked with before, somehow. So at first, we're not hiring a stranger, we're not going to run screening interviews to hire someone, because we need trust, and we don't have enough time to validate someone's fit or ability.
So the question is actually quite difficult for me, because I don't really ask questions in that sense, I understand them already, but of course I still had conversations and tried to figure some things out. What I'm trying to figure out is resilience: I know the members can self-motivate, I know they're very good engineers, and I know their will and motivation are strong, but I didn't know if they could stand up again after failure. So I tried to find that out.
Audience Q&A: Bold Actions, Funding, and Dropping Out
Hannah: I guess that's one of the perks of being a three-time founder, you've been through the journey of building a team before, you have that industry experience and network, so you have a clearer idea of what kind of people you want to work with, and you already have people in mind as you start your startup, thinking, oh, I should work with him, I should work with her.
I guess that's something that comes with having been on the entrepreneurial journey for a while, which is great. But for those who are just about to build their product, there are actually some questions coming up in the chat, so I'm going to read them out loud. I think a lot of these are coming from early-stage founders.
First, I have a question from Yuda: in an early startup with one founder and a team of fresh graduates, should the founder be taking more bold actions? I think they're asking, because you're the founder of this young team that's trying to learn through experience, should they be taking more risks, making more bold actions? What do you think?
Snow: Ah, that's a good question; it makes me think about my old days. Please don't listen to old men like me too much, but let me share my thoughts. It depends. One advantage of novice founders and younger startup members is that they can do things without fear, and they can bounce back from failure much better than second- or third-time founders. If you fail a third time, you can still start a fourth, but it's quite difficult. The first or second time it'll be easier, and much more encouraged.
So the bold part, or the part about listening to others, depends on your leadership, your philosophy, and the culture you want to build. I said my first startup had no real leaders, but I don't regret that culture itself, we were open with each other, we discussed a lot, and we liked each other a lot, that's why they're my lifelong friends. But still, if I could go back, I could do it a little better, not just choosing to be bold or deciding by myself, but there are some ways to make it better. That's all I can tell them.
Hannah: Thank you for that very genuine and thoughtful answer. We have another question, from Swarnavo: I'm in the ideation phase of a startup, I have a clear idea about the product, should I focus more on funding, or on building a team to attract A-players? I need funding, or the story, is the question. I guess it's about knowing when to build your team and when to fundraise, and for early-stage founders it's hard to tell, because there's a lot of content out there telling you what to do. What guidance did you have in your heart when you were building your startup?
Snow: Got it, congrats first, on having a great idea. I really like this phrase: the idea is the cheapest part, execution is everything. It must be a great idea, but the idea can still be thought of by others, so what's really important is how you act, how you execute. Of course you'll be able to raise funding using the idea, but trust me, investors will ask similar questions to what I'm asking. If you validate the idea, whatever the method, it will give you the power to build the team, and the power to get funded. So I'd like to recommend one book: The Right It. It's a really great book for validating ideas, I hope it helps.
Hannah: All right, book recommendation for you all. There's another question, from Arjun: do you have any tips for teens who want to get into entrepreneurship but feel restricted by school and society?
Snow: Oh, thank you for asking, I don't know, but I feel refreshed getting a question from teens. I really admire that. I hope you try many things, even if there are some obstacles. Recently I heard an interesting story: these days, university students are dropping out more often than before, and people come to them and ask, why are you dropping out, your university is quite good, why don't you graduate and start something. They say that in the AI era, this kind of opportunity may not come again in their lifetime unless they act now. That's why they decide to drop out, that kind of strong belief makes them take the leap.
I've heard that even some teenagers drop out of school to start something. I'm not recommending dropping out, but that kind of thinking is quite encouraging, and I hope VCs and other startup founders support them in starting something bigger and bigger. I'm sorry I don't have specific tools or methods, since I was actually a good student in high school, but I hope my words help.
Being a Technical Founder
Hannah: Thank you for sharing that. Speaking not just as a teen, but also as a young entrepreneur, I believe there are many young entrepreneurs watching right now, and I think one of the biggest challenges young entrepreneurs face is the lack of authority they feel when they're trying to build a team.
It feels like you always need to find another student to co-found with, which can be a good way too, but as you're building a product, you need to face a lot of different people and convince the world of your ideas, no matter how young you are or how much you may lack expertise in a certain industry. Have you had any experience of that, because you have been a founder ever since graduating from college? Have you ever encountered any of those instances where you had to convince others of your expertise or influence, and do you have any tips around that?
For people who feel they don't have enough influence to build a team or convince others of their ideas, what would you recommend they do, based on your experience?
Snow: Great question. Before answering, I should say I got a lot of benefit from my previous startups. This time we were funded last June or July, and while getting funded is never easy, it was relatively easier, even though the market wasn't great. The people I met, the work I've done, the career path, all of it helped build my credibility, and thankfully other people who could back us trusted us. So I hope that you, the questioner, are still early stage, there's a long path ahead, you're going to build authority, and every move you make will help build credibility. That's what I wanted to say before the answer.
As for the answer about authority, there are two things you can't purchase: one is time, the other is social credit and trust between people. You need time, and many things, to build deep trust, it can't be bought with money. So I don't think there's an easy way to build it. Instead of trying to build authority directly, I recommend acting on it and validating your ideas, whatever that takes. Again, I'd recommend The Right It for that.
Hannah: We have some other questions, but just before that, are you a technical founder?
Snow: Yeah, I am a technical founder.
Hannah: And are any of your other members non-technical founders, or are you all technical founders?
Snow: We are all technical founders.
Hannah: I see. This might not be very relevant to your current experience, but another attendee was asking how important it is to possess technical or building skills as a founder. You've had technical skills and you're working in the AI space, but if you were building a software-based product, how important would you think it is, if you were to give your opinion on it?
Snow: There's a general answer and an honest answer, let me give the honest one. As you said, I haven't been a non-technical founder, so it's a little difficult for me to compare, but as a technical founder it's helped me a lot, really a lot. First, if you ask engineers or developers whether something is possible, the quick answer is that of course, if you have enough time and money, everything is possible. Based on that confidence, we can expand our ideas and abilities, that's why I think being a technical founder helps your business.
Meanwhile, I don't think everyone needs to be a technical founder or an engineer, there are other ways. What I'm saying is that learning how things work, and understanding what they are, will help you think about solutions. Of course the problem is much more important, but you can still think about solutions and move forward.
Loneliness, Failure, and Leaning on a Co-Founder
Hannah: There's another question about being a founder and your social life in general. I want to rephrase it and ask: what are some moments when you feel alone or lonely as a founder, if you have been into those situations, and in those times, how do you overcome them?
Snow: That's also a great question. Ironically, I felt really alone when I had seven co-founders. At the time, when we were arguing about direction or features, I had my own ideas, and of course discussions and decisions had to be made, but when the discussion got longer it was quite tiring. It felt like it would be faster to just do something and learn, and we'd learn a lot more that way. But at the time, we all equally believed we owned the decision-making, we all had the same roles, we were all CEOs, so we couldn't just act on our own.
I was formally CEO, but I couldn't do what I wanted, not because CEOs can do everything they want, but because I still couldn't make decisions on my own as CEO. That was the lonely part. I'm not a smoker, but at the time I'd smoke from time to time. These days I have my co-founder Liam, he helps me a lot when I feel lonely.
I don't have the strongest mentality, I get hurt quite deeply when I face failure or get negative feedback from customers, my mood goes down really deeply. But I have resilience, I can bounce back quickly every time. Liam, who is relatively steady, helps me get back to a normal track.
Hannah: When you had the seven co-founders, when you started, why did you think that was what you had to do back at that time? What was important to you before, when you had those seven co-founders that made you be a CEO but still struggle from not being able to make decisions of your own? What was sort of going through your head in that situation?
What do you think was more important to you back then, with seven co-founders, that stopped you from saying, forget it, I'm going to do it myself, we don't need seven co-founders? Why do you think you weren't able to make that decision?
Snow: At that time we had seven co-founders and we were struggling. At first it was very helpful, but at some point we were struggling, and there were choices I could have made, changing the culture, changing the decision-making process, or keeping the culture as it was. I chose to keep the culture, and we made every decision all together, which slowed us down. I didn't change things, and that's the point I regret. Yeah, it's not about that, though.
Hannah: Say, looking back, if you could have known something before that you have realized now, what would it be?
Snow: In that case, I should have shared my thoughts clearly and honestly with the team members. I didn't, I was struggling with these feelings and difficulties, but on the outside I needed to be the person who kept the culture and insisted that we all had equal power and responsibility, that we were all owners. But I was, it's not a matter of power over responsibility, it's a matter of roles and decision-making processes. We were so young, we didn't know that being honest between co-founders is really essential. We didn't know that.
So if I could go back, I would clearly share my thoughts, and probably try to read some other books too. If I can recommend one more book, I'd also recommend Traction, which I mentioned before.
Final Mindset: Act, Learn, Repeat
Hannah: I think we have time for just one more question, from Arjun, and I think it's a good one to wrap up on, it's about mindset one more time. What kind of mindset do you think is most important to become a successful entrepreneur, and do you believe your greatest success comes after your biggest failure? I guess this is one of the hypotheses he may also have, so what do you think?
Snow: I don't think there's one mindset for founders, I'll just share my own. For me, it's very important to act on things. There will always be worries and anxiety, maybe you don't have a plan, maybe you don't know your customers, maybe you don't have any customers or traction or ideas yet, you might face failures and negative feedback from customers. But if you act on it, and launch something, bringing your product to market, you'll learn something. That's what I value most.
Hannah: Thank you so much for sharing that. So before we go, are there any last things you'd like to share before we wrap up?
Snow: We're still a very young, early-stage startup, so we're going to have a lot of struggles. I hope you'll be with us, supporting us, and I hope all entrepreneurs grow together. If you're considering adopting AI for your workspace or work processes, come talk to us, I'd love to talk.
Hannah: Definitely, thank you so much, Snow.
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